Curse

Nexus Icon · Nov 28, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

I've played monk, I know all of the reasons they could get angry, and believe me, most of the ones I came across before heroes were around were just on a power trip.
Playing monk does NOT magically imbue you with more knowledge about the game than everybody else out there.
Just because you're responsible for keeping people alive doesn't mean you're some master tactician.
Being a monk doesn't give you the right to dictate the contents of somebody else's skillbar.
Monks had too much power.
That power has been removed.
That's just aces by me.

Rera · Nov 28, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Monks never had power if you were any good. You could always take henchmen (like most of the people here do).

Your monk hate is essentially unfounded, because it's not really specific to the class. Calling tactics and dictating skillbars - you think only monks do that? I do both no matter what class I play.

Nexus Icon · Nov 28, 2006, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Now you're just playing Devil's Advocate, and as usual, just posting in an effort to one-up someone else Rera (the implication that I'm not a good player? REEEEAAAAAL smooth).
Are you really saying that my experience is the exception rather than the rule?
Take off the blinkers, but above all, stop posting if all you can ever do is argue.

NJudson · Nov 28, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Prophecies is a different story, but that content is way too easy these days. And nobody plays Factions anymore, so obviously, there aren't any PUGs there.

Now I personnaly love playing PUG much much more than henching it and I may or may not get Factions for Christmas this year (I only have Prophecies now). So if I do get the game then is what you're saying an extreme exaggeration or will I really be frustrated in trying to find any PUG throughout all or most of the Factions campaign? I really only play PvE so that is important to me.

Antheus · Nov 28, 2006, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

I've played monk, I know all of the reasons they could get angry, and believe me, most of the ones I came across before heroes were around were just on a power trip.
Playing monk does NOT magically imbue you with more knowledge about the game than everybody else out there.
Just because you're responsible for keeping people alive doesn't mean you're some master tactician.
Being a monk doesn't give you the right to dictate the contents of somebody else's skillbar.
Monks had too much power.
That power has been removed.
That's just aces by me.

Well, how about having several protectors for every chapter?
How about having most of primary classes available for PvE?
All unlocks available and purchased in PvE?
A monk - magical powers? Nope. Experience and knowledge. Monk only gives you more option to make things happen.
Dictate skill bars? No. Balancing the team, compensating for weaknes. Never ever requiring a single skill, just making sure all the bases are covered.
Knowing every mission/bonus/masters inside out?

Monk's job isn't to keep people alive. That's a huge misconception. Why, would anyone in a game of killing try to keep things alive?

A monk's job is to kill. Strange, but true. But unlike other classes, monks can't kill anything. Just like a pure MM can't kill a thing. They require on others to supply corpses, which MM then turns into killing machine.

But monks do killing in a different way. They make sure all party members are working at optimal efficiency. A dead party member isn't killing. A party member with empathy or faintheartedness isn't killing will enough. A dazed caster isn't dealing damage. A party member getting spike is running away, again, not killing.

Monks that think their job is to keep everyone alive will run into trouble. So what if you let leeroy die? You just helped your team reduce agro. The only class that has ever considered monks to be their personal healer, is the stereotypical wammo, charging ahead and getting killed. And then, there's pure protection monk. Those, for example, don't carry a single healing skill, apart from divine favor. What good are they then?

Primadonas as monks? I have yet to meet one. Monks are just regular group members. If that member misbehaves, don't invite them.

But explaining the mission requirements to the group isn't being primadona. Asking for 2 players to bring interrupts isn't dictating their skill bar. Rejecting third warrior in favor of DPS isn't being authoritative. Not running after a crazy wammo letting him die isn't being poor monk. Insisting on a SS rather than MM in a mission with no corpses isn't being bossy.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Like I said, if anyone ever feels that my group composition, my request (requests, no demands) for certain roles and or mission specific skills (shivers requires winter, knockdowns require ward of stability, AoE conditions martyr, interrupts/shutdown for caster heavy missions etc.) is unreasonable or you disagree with that, you're not forced to group with me.

I get masters or bonus in first try with random PUG. None of the PUGs ever sucks, and have no problem players. None of the monks I join with are primadonas, no warriors are leeroys, no casters are tanks. Nobody rage quits, nobody insults, nobody curses. Is your experience the same?

Antheus · Nov 28, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJudson

Now I personnaly love playing PUG much much more than henching it and I may or may not get Factions for Christmas this year (I only have Prophecies now). So if I do get the game then is what you're saying an extreme exaggeration or will I really be frustrated in trying to find any PUG throughout all or most of the Factions campaign? I really only play PvE so that is important to me.

Factions wasn't well received by PvE players. Especially the gated content has turned away many, leaving most of the higher end areas empty.

For this very reason, getting PUGs for certain missions was a problem for entire time. Going back, trying to finish some more missions will mostly limit you to henchies.

This is somewhat more annoying in Factions, since all missions are designed for fastest killing, rather than doing anything more elaborate.

Getting an odd player or two is possible, but be prepared to fill the missing slots with heroes (not henchies, most of them are really bad - another reason for slower advancement).

Some of the missions are populated, especially the last two, and the situation will improve as more players get done with NF and either purchase or return to Factions.

Nexus Icon · Nov 28, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Antheus, either you're incredibly lucky, or I have an idiot magnet attached to my character.
I've had non-communicative monks join up who refuse to say anything when prompted;
I've had monks say "give me that xyz drop that so-&-so just got or I leave";
I've had monks who join a party, get what they want (be it a cap, bonus or EA quest) then leave without stating that this was what they were going to do beforehand, even when asked;
I've had god knows how many monks bring a bar full of 10e heals then run out of energy in the middle of the first fight and ragequit;
The list goes on.
If taking heroes with me, that I can even control the movement of, means I don't have to put up with any chance of this ever happening again, then I'm in heaven thankyouverymuch.

And I'm not saying that all monks are bad, just the astoundingly large majority of the ones I've grouped with.

And let's face it, before heroes came along, having at least one monk in a group was an absolute, carved-in-stone, "THOU SHALT OBEY!", necessity if you were wanting to group with other humans at all.
I could quite happily make do with henchies, but groups in general believed that they sucked and would insist that you continue to look for a real-live monk for the next 30 minutes instead of even just TRYING with henchies.

So forgive me for being ecstatic about never again having to have my playing time dictated by the availability and reliability of human monks.

ChaoticCoyote · Nov 28, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

PuGs are not dead by any stretch of the imagination.

On the way to attaining my Protector of Elona title last night, I did Gate of Pain and Gate of Madness (yes, that mission) with 100% human PuGs. Masters on both missions.

Now, I'd done Gate of Madness before, with PuGs, and had some very annoying circumstances. But one great PuG was worth the frustration... very clean, very relaxed, and we managed to recover from a bad situation in a way that no set of heros/henches could have accomplished.

And I've got my title.

Heros and henches make for great fill-ins (no more spamming for monks), but they don't replace good people.

AncientLord · Nov 28, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

I was prety new to GW as it is, but when i 1st. time tryed out the "pug" omg >_> .... such lack of orientation, info. like i was on kindergarden. I tried with random party 1 mision and we done it like 5-7 time ? (lol) after all died i and my clan mate and 1 henc. monk maked the mision in 5 min. This is really nice explain how dumb down are players really. Same thing goes for pvp teams.

I only team up, if i see some "normal" players.

Regards.

AncientLord

Two April Mornings · Nov 28, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Hmmmm what to prefer:

Doing mission with a PUG team. After 30 minutes of searching for the right players, a total idiot screws up after 5 minutes after entering the mission, he then leaves, and so does the monk and 2 other people. Back to town to spend yet again 30 minutes finding a perfect team. (Before that is done, the remaining players have left as well.)

Or heroes/henchies. The battlefield is a total chaos, caster henchies are running everywhere, and Koss runs off and aggroes 2 groups, even though you commanded the heroes/henchies to stay behind.

hard choice, I'd find a guild and some nice friends which are very reliable. No more PUGs, no more heroes/henchman, but just doing the mission with your friends

Those are my feelings. And also, PUGS are def not gone.

Antheus · Nov 28, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Antheus, either you're incredibly lucky, or I have an idiot magnet attached to my character.
I've had non-communicative monks join up who refuse to say anything when prompted;

Never. The monks I get in my groups coordinate the builds for heal/prot. It's what I ask for in the first place: Group LF heal/prot, LoD GL, Full prot, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

I've had monks say "give me that xyz drop that so-&-so just got or I leave";

Huh? I do remember a warrior pestering everyone in group for red dye, but that's the only case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

I've had monks who join a party, get what they want (be it a cap, bonus or EA quest) then leave without stating that this was what they were going to do beforehand, even when asked;

Never, unless this was the purpose of the group in the first place. From time to time a party member leaves, and sometimes it's a monk. But that's a side effect of playing with real people who get real life distractions. "Sometimes" is the key word. It's not common though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

I've had god knows how many monks bring a bar full of 10e heals then run out of energy in the middle of the first fight and ragequit;

Monks run out of energy, so do other classes, coordinate the skills before hand. If a monk has trouble keeping up, slow down the pace a bit to compensate. Best monking is not healing - having one protector will do wonders for energy in many cases.

Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm playing at different times, maybe I use different group making strategies.

One rule I do use: Group LF "this and that", need "build/role". I let others join me. I never ever invite someone. If you wish to join, feel free. This greatly increases the chances of getting interested players. Never ask for classes. If you want a necro, that's what you get - anything. Ask for a warder, and you'll get an ele with high earth anti-melee/anti-elemental wards with additional damage dealing skills.

When doing missions, I always go only for masters or mission + bonus. This even further increases chances of getting interested players.

Last rule I do use, is that I take my time. 15 minutes. This is an important filter as well. Impatient people will leave. Annoying people will comment with gogogogog, let's go already, etc. When doing this, the time between adding first member to the group, and the time you leave must not be larger than 15 minutes. After that time, people will start to leave. If you cannot make a PUG in 15 minutes max, you better add heroes/henchies ASAP, or disband the group and go do something else. Very rarely it's impossible to fill entire group in this time. And if you can't, you're opting for a sub-par group in the first place.

For difficult missions where you rely on players, 15 minutes isn't much, especially considering some are LFG for hours, and mission will last 30+ minutes at least.

All of this applies to more difficult areas. From Vabbi onwards for example. It applies to most of factions, and to Ring of Fire, S Shiverpeaks missions.

Trying to make perfect group for previous missions is redundant and mostly waste of time, since they aren't needed, and you indeed are better off with henchies.

FeuerFrei · Nov 28, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

oh...miss pugs...made alot of frens doing missions with them although i ll have to say that there were occasional screw ups....it was fun talkin n all and completing the mission. and at the end everybody will thank each other for helpin out in completing the mission...

SpeedyKQ · Nov 28, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJudson

Now I personnaly love playing PUG much much more than henching it and I may or may not get Factions for Christmas this year (I only have Prophecies now). So if I do get the game then is what you're saying an extreme exaggeration or will I really be frustrated in trying to find any PUG throughout all or most of the Factions campaign? I really only play PvE so that is important to me.

While IMO Factions is better than Nightfall, I'd suggest asking for NF for Christmas instead if you enjoy pugging. Pretty much everywhere in Factions is dead, no exaggeration. You'll need guildies or friends to make human groups there. You can still get in pugs in NF, though it isn't as easy as it used to be.

tomcruisejr · Nov 28, 2006, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeuerFrei

...and at the end everybody will thank each other for helpin out in completing the mission...

good feeling. that's another reason why i do pugs in pve.

meanwhile, somewhere in Elona...

Player X finished Mission X with 3 heroes and 4 NPCs...

Player X : "Thanks guys for the help."
Dunkoro: "No problem.

"

Player X freaks out and uninstalls the game.

Apharot · Nov 28, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bale_Shadowscar

The thing that annoys me with forming a Mission group in NF, is that people always walk around with 3 heroes in their party, and so when you add them, you know that it'll just be you, them and their heroes. Kind of annoying, especially when you're trying to make a mostly human team.

I've heard people specify "No heros" so you might want to try that

Rera · Nov 28, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Now you're just playing Devil's Advocate, and as usual, just posting in an effort to one-up someone else Rera (the implication that I'm not a good player? REEEEAAAAAL smooth).
Are you really saying that my experience is the exception rather than the rule?
Take off the blinkers, but above all, stop posting if all you can ever do is argue.

Devil's Advocate? Nothing I've stated is particularly obscure, exceptional, or theoretical, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Your hate post is misguided because you seem to think that the 'power trip' phenomenon is a property of monks only, when in fact players of all professions indulge in it.

Furthermore, calling tactics and dictating skillbars is the job of any good team leader, whether it's a monk or not, and to suggest that these are somehow Bad Things is incorrect.

*Darcy* · Nov 28, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Here is a link to guru's articles on gameplay.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/articles-library-id31.php

There are two on PuGs with how-to's on forming them and working with them. I especially like the idea of telling them to take the set break while you work on forming the rest of the party. This helps keep people from becoming impatient and leaving.

As Antheus stated, it's better to put the work in beforehand than to keep having to repeat the mission/quest.

If you put no effort into finding/forming a good group, you will usually get what you have asked for - a group with problems.

NinjaKai · Nov 28, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Furthermore, calling tactics and dictating skillbars is the job of any good team leader, whether it's a monk or not, and to suggest that these are somehow Bad Things is incorrect.

I think dictate is too strong a word. I'd never let anyone dictate my skillbar to me, i'd let them suggest something but never let them dictate. Of course everyone is allowed to run their own builds. However, its when they kick you from a group that said leader is not worth the effort.
My general tactic before pugging is going into the area prior and testing out builds to see what works. (In-escapable habit of having a mesmer primary as my first character.) Preparation is the key to success.

kazjun · Nov 29, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Not sure I'd agree about taking 15 minutes to make a group. If I joined up early and the leader said we're waiting for 15 minutes I'd probably leave and hero-hench it. Especially since I've already hero-henched all the missions.

I just pug for fun, but if you want to actually finish something, go guildie or heroes-henches. Gate of madness? Tough with a pug, but heroes pawn it so quick you wonder why anyone ever complains about hero AI.

As for checking skillbars, I don't mind showing it, and most times I'd agree with most changes anyway, since I'd be changing from having a team I already balanced (my heroes) to a random group where there may be some gaps. But I'd want to know the skillbars of the one wanting the changes himself. If he's a monk with healing breeze as his main heal, well...

Str0b0 · Nov 29, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

I've found PUGs to not be worth the effort anymore. Now while usually I will sing the praises of heros this isn't one of those posts. This actually has to do with the aforementioned leaders dictating skill bars. I HATE cookie cutter builds. Efficient? Yes but people get their blinders on when they get too used to them and I pride myself on coming up with effective and viable builds that aren't cookie cutter in nature. At one point I tried joining groups and when tey asked if I was X build and I wasn't I'd say." No but look this is what is in my skill bar and this is how it works." Out of all the hundreds of PUGs I once joined I've only had 3 party leaders listen. Of those only one actually said." Wow cool yeah that will work." The other 2 politely declined my participation. The other several hundred invariably came back with "Ha Ha NOOB U R teh suck". I get this a lot with my W/E because he isn't a Wammo. I use Earth Magic armor buffs and condition causing skills with him and he does as much damage as any WAMMO and last considerably longer, mostly because I use OF to keep my buffs from being stripped. It just is easier to tailor make a hero and hench team to compliment your build than trying to explain to someone with their forum blinders on that your build will work and be an asset to their team.